feeding super small brass stk

[Delw]

Have a question.
I have a job that requires us to feed .0255 brass stock on the citizen f10.
collet we can get from hardinge, bushing a no go, its an engineering special. (they only go down to .030 dia. on bushing)

I have cut 1/32 and 1/16 but always stainless. we had to make a long tube to hold the stock steady between the bushing and collet so when feeding there is no bending or twist and the stock snapping off. we have a rotary bushing so the stock wont bust off in the bushing if it gets too tight.

anyhow for the bushing I am thinking of taking a 3/32 bushing and cutting a piece of teflon to slide into the bushing and the bigger ID behind the bushing for support. it will have basically a .0938 dia about .300 long then goto the collet id size with a .0255 hole. in the back its somwhere like .750 dia with a slight press fit to fit into the back bushing . we did this before to keep some stk from scratching on a bigger material and it worked quite well..

The parts are a like a pc pin full rad on the front and then cut off to .3 long. so no cutting the O.D. The maching isnt going to be a problem but the feeding I think will.
I dont use a barfeed for feeding, I use the bushing to pull the stock. also have a 1/16 and .078 id tube for support of the material behind the collet. so whipping behind the coolet isnt a problem


Am I thinking this out correctly? or is it impossible .0255 bras is a hell of alot smaller than .03125 stainless.
any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[Mhajicek]

If that doesn't work, as I'm sure you've considered you could feed larger stock and turn the OD.

 

[Delw]

Oh yeah, but the customer had already gotten 20 6foot lengths of the stock.
its doable in a 5c collet machine but you need to have an air chuck not a hydraulic. I might have to get the omniturn running if worse comes to worse. I need an excuess to have it running anyhow.

 

[Dualkit]

Good luck, let us know how it goes. I never ran any stock under 1/16th in a Swiss, and would prefer to not even go that small, .125 and up for me.

 

[Dupa3872]

If that doesn't work, as I'm sure you've considered you could feed larger stock and turn the OD.

Unless it's some special grade or custom type of material I would give back the stock or pretend you used it and go with this suggestion. You will spend more money dicking around that you will on new material.

Ron

 

[TeachMePlease]

So, first off, talk to KEB (Kebkollets.com) about a guide bushing. They've made me so many weird items in the past.

Second, if possible with your machine, I would ignore the main spindle completely, other than using it to spin the material while putting the radius on the front of the part, leave it un clamped and use your sub spindle to pull the stock through the guide bushing, use it to spin the stock for part off. Let the main basically be a steady rest. This should avoid most of the hassles of feeding stock that small.

Not sure if your controller allows for that kind of programming, but that's how I'd try it on my newer Citizens.

 

[Dualkit]

So, first off, talk to KEB (Kebkollets.com) about a guide bushing. They've made me so many weird items in the past.

Second, if possible with your machine, I would ignore the main spindle completely, other than using it to spin the material while putting the radisu on the front of the part, leave it un clamped and use your sub spindle to pull the stock through the guide bushing, use it to spin the stock for part off. Let the main basically be a steady rest. This should avoid most of the hassles of feeding stock that small.

Not sure if your controller allows for that kind of programming, but that's how I'd try it on my newer Citizens.

Won't picking off and ejecting a part that small be an issue? Isn't that diameter about the size of the slots in the collet pads? Won't an ejector pin even with the weakest spring possible damage the part on pick up? I would not think ejecting it with air blow only would work. Disclaimer, my Swiss knowledge is dated, the "youngest" machine I have ran is almost 20 years old. I scrapped my sub spindled machine a half dozen years ago.

 

[Delw]

Unless it's some special grade or custom type of material I would give back the stock or pretend you used it and go with this suggestion. You will spend more money dicking around that you will on new material.

Ron

D.O.D. work,
all I have to do is ask for different material, if need be.

 

[Delw]

So, first off, talk to KEB (Kebkollets.com) about a guide bushing. They've made me so many weird items in the past.

Second, if possible with your machine, I would ignore the main spindle completely, other than using it to spin the material while putting the radisu on the front of the part, leave it un clamped and use your sub spindle to pull the stock through the guide bushing, use it to spin the stock for part off. Let the main basically be a steady rest. This should avoid most of the hassles of feeding stock that small.

Not sure if your controller allows for that kind of programming, but that's how I'd try it on my newer Citizens.

I'll try them in a few thanks. I bought a hex collet from them years ago

Yes the machine is Capable of that and its a pretty good idea. using it to pull the stock.

Thanks

 

[Delw]

Won't picking off and ejecting a part that small be an issue? Isn't that diameter about the size of the slots in the collet pads? Won't an ejector pin even with the weakest spring possible damage the part on pick up? I would not think ejecting it with air blow only would work. Disclaimer, my Swiss knowledge is dated, the "youngest" machine I have ran is almost 20 years old. I scrapped my sub spindled machine a half dozen years ago.

sub spindle uses the same collet as the main spindle, normally you get an extended nose collet for the sub so you have a longer reach.
The ejector pin pressure can be adjusted, and can be made out of plastic or put a plastic tip on it,so it doesnt ding the part

 

[TeachMePlease]

Won't picking off and ejecting a part that small be an issue? Isn't that diameter about the size of the slots in the collet pads? Won't an ejector pin even with the weakest spring possible damage the part on pick up? I would not think ejecting it with air blow only would work. Disclaimer, my Swiss knowledge is dated, the "youngest" machine I have ran is almost 20 years old. I scrapped my sub spindled machine a half dozen years ago.

Size shouldn't be an issue. We do it on smaller stuff. I've got a part that's .018" and rectangular that can be picked off. Ejectors aren't spring loaded anymore, but a part like that would either be ejected with air or high pressure coolant through the sub spindle. Air alone should be just fine. High pressure coolant would be a backup.

 

[Dualkit]

Size shouldn't be an issue. We do it on smaller stuff. I've got a part that's .018" and rectangular that can be picked off. Ejectors aren't spring loaded anymore, but a part like that would either be ejected with air or high pressure coolant through the sub spindle. Air alone should be just fine. High pressure coolant would be a backup.

Pretty sure even the air blow systems are better now than what I have worked on, air blow was mostly used to clear chips back in the day. How do you keep a small part ejected with high pressure coolant from ending up bouncing all over the place?

 

[TeachMePlease]

Pretty sure even the air blow systems are better now than what I have worked on, air blow was mostly used to clear chips back in the day. How do you keep a small part ejected with high pressure coolant from ending up bouncing all over the place?

You put a ball valve inline with the HPC hookup to your knockout, and you turn the flow down to "just enough" to get the part out reliably. It also helps if you put some foam in the back of your parts catcher.

 

[Dualkit]

You put a ball valve inline with the HPC hookup to your knockout, and you turn the flow down to "just enough" to get the part out reliably. It also helps if you put some foam in the back of your parts catcher.

Since I no longer have data capped internet and can stream video up to 720p (better than nothing) are there any model Swiss in action you would recommend I watch in action to get myself into the 21st century?

 

[TeachMePlease]

Since I no longer have data capped internet and can stream video up to 720p (better than nothing) are there any model Swiss in action you would recommend I watch in action to get myself into the 21st century?

Citizen K16 makes a 3 piece whistle in one operation:

Citizen L20X with B Axis and Automatic Tool Changer:

Citizen L20 with Laser Cutting:

Citizen K16 with Bone Screw Unloader Automation:

 

[lobust]

Sliding head work is completely alien to me, but I do enjoy watching those vids. We have a local sliding head place that we sub to but I've never been in there. Only time I've ever seen a sliding head in person was at a trade expo.

That integrated tube laser is pretty sweet..

 

[Dualkit]

Thanks for the videos, Teach. I think I am just an oddball, even though I am in amazement of all the bells and whistles I also think those machines must cost a fortune and could end up a maintenance nightmare down the road. I could imagine what kind of repair bill a bad crash could ring up.
I went out on my own in 1994 and up to then the most expensive Swiss crash was a hydraulic advance 3 spindle front drill attachment vs the over head gang tool block. That was done by a guy who was a nervous Nellie who rushed through set-ups. Star said around $5k + parts over the phone. I volunteered my weekend at double time (It happened Friday a.m.) I worked as slow as a snail with a helper (you can't work alone), and total wages were $1200. Most of the work was realigning everything. Those Stars of that vintage could get knocked out of alignment by sneezing on them.

Back to the videos, how many "heads" are there programming wise? All I ever ran was head 1 & 2, front and back.

 

[Delw]

SO I played with this a tad over the weekend, seemed to work on the bushing part the Collet part I didnt make so well and the stock had runout into the bushing about .002-.003. I am betting if I had the collet that they do make and can get to me by end off week it would work just fine with my bushing modification.
if they will take a partial getting me solid bar in 1/8-1/4 or even the whole job its cake to make and only takes about 15 secs per part if that. 2 tools one on turret 1 and one on turret 2 (why dual turrets are cool). no tool changing nothing. funny thing is my feed was .0003 on 1800 rpms and that seems like a super fast feed rate.
I ran some test parts out of Tellurium copper alloy 145 that I had in an old cardboard tube, finish and size came out perfectly.
that was the closest thing I had to brass that small. brass is a tad more brittle and a tad harder but wanted to make sure the machine could do it.