Heidenhain CNC Pilot 4290

[lobust]

I just bought a Gildemeister CTX 400 S2, 2003 model. Paid £10k for it unseen, which would normally be crazy, but it comes with an ungodly amount of tooling, including 20+ live tools, probably 3x the cost of the machine worth and it was too tempting to pass up.

I've kind of always wanted one of these because:

I used to have an ancient (1986) CT-40, the predecessor of this model, and I loved that machine. Honestly the best lathe I ever ran in terms of accuracy and surface finish. It had an oddball control too, a Grundig EPL (Eltro Pilot, not a typo) which over the years somehow morphed into the Heidy CNC Pilot. Fantastic control from a usability perspective, super intuitive with nice features. I scrapped that machine when it cooked a servo - used old Siemens Simoreg DC servos that were difficult to source and expensive when you could find them and the machine had no value to retrofit.

This newer machine also uses Siemens drives, but the more modern Simodrive 611 series which shouldn't be a death sentence if one dies.

The unknown to me is the control. Never had a heidenhain. The 3190 manual is notably absent from Heidenhain's library (the machine has all it's manuals though), and there is much more data available for the 4290, which appears to be superficially the same and I'm struggling to figure out what the difference is. Are any of you familiar? How screwed am I going to be when it dies?

 

[Vancbiker]

Will keep fingers crossed for you. My experience with old Heidy stuff is not good. They just don’t seem to care about supporting things beyond 10 or so years. Hopefully in the UK they will be better.

 

[lobust]

Will keep fingers crossed for you. My experience with old Heidy stuff is not good. They just don’t seem to care about supporting things beyond 10 or so years. Hopefully in the UK they will be better.

That's pretty much what I was expecting to hear. It's not a huge investment, so the risk is minimal. For some reason small turning centres are selling at really premium prices over here right now and the price was right on this one even though it's an old machine at this point.

This model Gildy was available with a Fanuc control too but there are not many of them around, whereas the Heidy ones are commonplace.

 

[Barbter]

So that's a Graziano lathe then (all the CTX models were)?
Heidy - I thought there was a good upgrade path where newer control "boxes" were pretty much plug n play onto older units?
If the iron is good, and it's all Siemens drives, you could always slap a 828shopturn on it?
And you would LOVE that!

 

[Vancbiker]

Not sure of the Heidy upgrade path for some of their controls, but for the Accurite models it makes for an expensive repair. I have an acquaintance with a knee mill with Accurite. When the display died the Heidenhain response was that a replacement display was not available and he had to replace the entire control front panel which contains the control. Over $3k. He got some help from his dad (an electrical and computer guy) and was able to replace just the display with a PC LCD. I believe they had add some king of video signal conversion board as well.

 

[lobust]

So that's a Graziano lathe then (all the CTX models were)?
Heidy - I thought there was a good upgrade path where newer control "boxes" were pretty much plug n play onto older units?
If the iron is good, and it's all Siemens drives, you could always slap a 828shopturn on it?
And you would LOVE that!

Possible it's Graziano. I'm not 100% sure which ones are/are not. I know my old timer was a Bielefeld machine. Seems like there were a LOT of these in the UK 20 years ago, but they're thinning out a bit now.
If it comes to be a retro it would be simple enough, but I'm not sure how worthwhile it would be. Like I said, small turning centres are priced stupid high right now for some reason, so maybe. On the other hand prices might go back to "normal" at some point. The only other CTX 400 for sale right now is asking at £22k, several years older and no tooling. Most other offerings that are somewhat appealing to me are £30k+ right now and I don't need one that badly.

This also is not the first machine I've gambled on because I was tempted by the bundled tooling, and I've been lucky in the past. Hopefully I'll be lucky this time too, but maybe I'm due a loss, time will tell!

It's a roller guide machine, so the condition of the iron is somewhat less of a concern.

I'm told the reason for selling it is that nobody there knows the Heidenhain so it never gets used and they need to make space for something else. Possibly that's bullshit, but who knows.

Not sure of the Heidy upgrade path for some of their controls, but for the Accurite models it makes for an expensive repair. I have an acquaintance with a knee mill with Accurite. When the display died the Heidenhain response was that a replacement display was not available and he had to replace the entire control front panel which contains the control. Over $3k. He got some help from his dad (an electrical and computer guy) and was able to replace just the display with a PC LCD. I believe they had add some king of video signal conversion board as well.

Accurite stuff is rare over here to the point that I've never seen one in the wild. Not defending them but I can kind of understand why Heidenhain would be keen to brush it under the carpet. How did they end up with that brand anyway?

 

[Vancbiker]

…….I'm told the reason for selling it is that nobody there knows the Heidenhain so it never gets used and they need to make space for something else. Possibly that's bullshit, but who knows.

It happens. That’s how I got my Mori. It was in a cell with 3 Kitamuras making fiber optic accessories. The Kitties all had Fanuc controls while the Mori had Mitsubishi. Due to familiarity, the Kitties got the bulk of use while the odd fellow Mori was only run when high workloads demanded it. When the project wrapped up the Mori was put in storage in case of future small jobs. It sat in storage about 9 years before the company decided to clear it out. It didn’t run due to dead batteries and they didn’t want to put in the effort to rejuvenate it so it went very cheap.

Accurite stuff is rare over here to the point that I've never seen one in the wild. Not defending them but I can kind of understand why Heidenhain would be keen to brush it under the carpet. How did they end up with that brand anyway?

Acquisition. They still make them with the target user a small machine and using the conversational programming. Kind of seems like they don’t want to bother with components, just selling assemblies.

 

[Pmtool]

I hope you have better luck with support than I do with a Heidenhain control around that age. Although mine has a Kellenberger grinder front end on it that basically makes it some sort of orphan that Heidenhain and Kellenberger both want nothing to do with at this point. My feeling is there is much more support, including third party repair options for Heidenhain in Europe

 

[lobust]

It happens. That’s how I got my Mori. It was in a cell with 3 Kitamuras making fiber optic accessories. The Kitties all had Fanuc controls while the Mori had Mitsubishi. Due to familiarity, the Kitties got the bulk of use while the odd fellow Mori was only run when high workloads demanded it. When the project wrapped up the Mori was put in storage in case of future small jobs. It sat in storage about 9 years before the company decided to clear it out. It didn’t run due to dead batteries and they didn’t want to put in the effort to rejuvenate it so it went very cheap.

It's actually how I ended up with my first Gildemeister too. Some guy acquired it with some other machines, but all of his guys only knew mazatrol so it was a boat anchor for them. He put it up on ebay with no reserve just to get rid of it and I bought it for next to nothing because it looked cool. Turned out that lathe was so good it spoiled me for every lathe I got afterwards.

I hope you have better luck with support than I do with a Heidenhain control around that age. Although mine has a Kellenberger grinder front end on it that basically makes it some sort of orphan that Heidenhain and Kellenberger both want nothing to do with at this point. My feeling is there is much more support, including third party repair options for Heidenhain in Europe

That is what I am hoping, it would make sense. When I had the really old Gildy, there was an independent guy in Germany called Karl Heinz Bentrup, who had every part sitting on the shelf for the old Grundig control. I only ever had to buy from him once, a power supply that I could most likely fix myself now. I googled him last night and seems he is no longer in business.

From a bit of investigating last night, the CNC Pilot 3190 is a windows based control, and all machine configuration data is saved on the hard drive. That is going to be a weak point for sure, so I think cloning that drive will be the first order of business when the machine arrives, assuming it is not already defunct. If it is dead, then I guess we will find out how good/bad/horrible Heidenhain support is on this side of the Atlantic....

Still none the wiser about the difference between the 3190 and the 4290, and seems I am not the only one who has noticed. I am wondering if the 4290 is the same hardware with newer software...

 

[Pmtool]

Yes, mine has a windows front end too. I figured out a way to hack the DOS password screen so I can login to the factory and maintenance login as nobody would give out passwords. So that gives me more access. Mine runs a software PLC however everything on the computer is in German which makes navigating things difficult for me. I get the impression that the less customization the machine tool builder did the easier time you will have.

 

[lobust]

I have the machine on the floor, it's actually a 4290. Actually looks like a pretty cool control, but waaay different to anything I've ever used before. Ethernet, USB, 64GB solid state hard drive, enough ram to run windows, actual amount unknown for now - pretty novel stuff for 2003.

The machine is filthy, but looks in mechanically decent shape. The inside of the electrical cabinet is gross too, filters are long gone and the fans have been pulling in thick oily residue and very fine metal chips from what looks like a saw or something that must have been parked behind the machine. And the cabinet fans are dying. The place this machine came out of must have been absolutely disgusting.

It has a bunch of faults that I am working through, all a result of the sheer dirtiness and lack of care of the previous owners.

The lube pump was stuck and wouldn't let the machine out of e-stop. That is fixed. The part catcher has some electrical gremlins with the prox switches that make the control occasionally think that it's not home. Unplugging one specific prox seems to cure that for now until I find the real cause.

Most concerning electrical glitch is the coolant pump has started running a couple of times uncommanded while I have been troubleshooting.

Considering the amount of greasy residue and metal particles inside the cabinet, it's kind of surprising the electrical faults are not much more...

Eventually got it to move the axis, to find the X won't home out, keeps going until it hits the hard limit. Z is fine. Some digging reveals that it has a glass scale on X, so probably it is just dirty and not picking up the reference marker.

It has an integrated motor spindle with a forced air cooling shroud, I dread to think what the inside of that looks like...

That's the bad.

The good is what came with it. Brand new Autoblok 2 and 3 jaw chucks, never been on the machine, enough new unused soft jaws to last me a good long while, several sets of claw jaws too. Autoblok collet chuck with a full set of round and hex collets. ~20 driven tools including one for involute gear/spline cutters, a couple with through coolant for gundrilling, over 100 vdi holders in total and every single one the best of the best brands. Whoever was the original purchaser of this machine, they had deep pockets, between the tooling and the spec. of the machine.

 

[lobust]

So the glass scale reader head is faulty I think. It is a Heidenhain 1vpp analogue sine wave output with a specific referencing mode (LS 486), so needs a like for like replacement.

It is a type that I have not seen before, that has reference markers at fairly small intervals, and positionable magnets on the outside to define which reference marker to use.

I think it is the magnetic sensor that is dead. There is a small three legged component on the top pcb of the reader head with a burned trace to it right where the flat ribbon connects to the pcb, but the whole trace still shows continuity so I guess the sensor itself is fried.

I have bought a used scale from ebay to cannibalise, but it's coming from Germany so it will take some time to arrive.

The coolant pump thing I think is actually normal. It runs for about 10 seconds when you open the door. Investigation reveals a ball valve on the side of the enclosure and some kind of bracket above it, that all looks rather like it is for a washdown gun.

 

[mach ramsey mn]

Hmmm…
What would be the cause of the smoked reader? Failed connector/cable? That would be my question?

 

[Vancbiker]

Since the burned appearing trace still shows continuity, I’d trace the circuit to it’s other end and inspect closely. I have seen situations similar where a short has caused traces to overheat and the weakest one fail. Not always closest to the failed component causing the short.

 

[mach ramsey mn]

A fuse if you will!!! lol!

 

[lobust]

Hmmm…
What would be the cause of the smoked reader? Failed connector/cable? That would be my question?

Since the burned appearing trace still shows continuity, I’d trace the circuit to it’s other end and inspect closely. I have seen situations similar where a short has caused traces to overheat and the weakest one fail. Not always closest to the failed component causing the short.

The other end of the ribbon cable is another small pcb with a bunch of smd passives and a 44pin QFP IC that I assume is a microcontroller to handle the reference sequence etc. No sign of damage on that one, but the traces are thicker.

Before I put power to it with the new head installed I will do a continuity/short check on the cable. The other end of the cable goes straight into the control, so I may or may not open that up, we'll see....

 

[lobust]

FINALLY got the replacement scale, customs hung on to it for ages.

Anyhow, I rung out the cable and found no issues, so I mounted the new scale and I can now reference both axis and the machine is able to actually do something. The new scale is longer (it was the cheapest one of the same series I could find on ebay...) and is sticking out the back right now, so now that it's proven working I will take the reader head off of it and put it on the original scale.

So now that it's operable I am able to figure out the condition of the rest of the machine.

The new bad:

• The Z axis is a little noisy at speed, doesn't quite sound like bearing noise, needs investigating.
• The live tool drive is not engaging, the solenoid operates a few times while the drive twitches a bit, then it gives up. Control seems to see both prox switches for this OK, so probably mechanical, maybe just gunked up like everything else.
• It has a fairly persistent E-stop condition at cold boot, that eventually disappears if you mess with it enough, or maybe just after some time
• One prox switch in the (very elaborate) part catcher is false triggering randomly, I've got a replacement on order.
• There may/may not be a hydraulic issue, it has an accumulator and pump that runs intermittently, but it seems to drop pressure quickly and force the pump to cycle more than I think it should.
• Cabinet fans all need replacing.
• There is a slight vibration from the spindle cooler fan, probably it is just covered in gunk and out of balance.

The new good:

• The spindle is smooth and quiet.
• I could turn parts on it now...

I need to learn the Heidenhain, it is SOOO different to anything I'm used to. It seems like an extremely functional control though.

 

[lobust]

All the actual faults with this machine are ironed out now, and I've run my first programs on it.

This control is a serious learning curve, it is nothing like anything I've ever used before!

It has a lot of cool features OOTB, especially considering it's over 20 years old! Eg:

• Sits on the network as a standard windows share, programs are drag and drop
• 64MB of ram, 64GB of solid state storage
• Very elaborate/comprehensive adaptive load monitoring and tool life control
• Really nice program interruption/restart
• Really nice tool library, swap existing tools into the turret with a few keypresses, explains why there are so many holders...
• Workholding library - chucks, collet chucks, jaw profiles, all displayed in the simulation
• Standard interface for communicating with offline automated inspection systems
• Built in cycles for probing and updating tool wear etc.
• User macros can communicate/request input from the operator via dialogue boxes
• C style branching (if/then/switch/case/default) in macros
• Advanced geometry compensation system
• Built in functions for things like interrupted feed
• Can program in feedrate or directly in required surface roughness
• Advanced built in diagnostics, logic analyser and scope etc. and realtime comms with a networked pc
• Canned cycles for EVERYTHING under the sun...

And a whole lot more that I've not figured out yet. Thankfully Gildemeister's documentation is extremely thorough...

Reliability etc. obviously remains to be seen, but on a functional level this thing really makes Fanuc look like a joke.