older citizen f12 with a t10 control

[Delw]

I hadnt run this machine in over a year and I had put brand new spindle bearings in it for the revolving bushing head, have a small tubing 1/8" .020 was 304 ss job to run. with .005 45º beaks + or - .003 on all ids and od's
Of course I didnt have a carbide guide bushing nor a collet so ordered one from Hardinge they didnt have it in stock and had to make it. I ordered it on thursday night. they shipped it friday night 2 day air.
I plum forgot or at least thought I did how to set it up and program it. took about 30 mins. guess I remembered after all. second part came out perfect.
so then I decided to set up the sub spindle which I only did 2 times like 5-6 years ago. well that killed me set-up time took me 4 hours to figure that out. I started getting it ready to run and was looking for a sub spindle tool and wouldnt you know it I found 3 1/8" collets and 2 carbide bushings right on the shelf under a rag. go figure.

I just forgot how cool these machines were and fun to run. I still have never tried the live tooling yet or the c axis, I just run it as a glorified lathe. Kinda breaks the monotony of running mills everyday, still had them running today. I gotta talk to my customer and get more work for it. small barfeed stuff is alot of fun and easy to run quickly.

 

[TeachMePlease]

The K16 is probably my favorite machine to setup/prgram/run

 

[Delw]

Thats pretty cool. and super fast.

I like that style tool bars they use, mine is a twin turret. which I have no complaints about it just takes lots of room.

On another note
I had to stop the sub spindle from finishing the job because I started getting collet marks in the part I think the collet was starting to squeeze a little much , not sure yet. we did appear to hold those .005 breaks dead nuts as I 100% checked over 150 pcs

 

[Dualkit]

I ran F12's 30 years ago, none of them had sub spindles. Annoying about the bushings and collets, I get all mine for my Star from Southwick & Meister those guys don't stock even common sizes, all made to order 5-6 week lead time.

 

[Delw]

I believe thats where I bought my hex collets from as they were faster. but only carry meanite (sp)ones.
usually hardinges has collets for it in stock. but if they the have alwasy had them made in 1-3 days and shipped. I only buy carbide ones and I havent found anyone else that makes carbide bushings.

 

[Dualkit]

I believe thats where I bought my hex collets from as they were faster. but only carry meanite (sp)ones.
usually hardinges has collets for it in stock. but if they the have alwasy had them made in 1-3 days and shipped. I only buy carbide ones and I havent found anyone else that makes carbide bushings.

I will have to check out Hardinge, Southwick and Meister makes carbide guide bushings, but like I said, nothing stocked and long lead times. One good thing about S&M is they have not raised prices in quite a long time last I checked.

 

[TeachMePlease]

I believe thats where I bought my hex collets from as they were faster. but only carry meanite (sp)ones.
usually hardinges has collets for it in stock. but if they the have alwasy had them made in 1-3 days and shipped. I only buy carbide ones and I havent found anyone else that makes carbide bushings.

Hardinge, KEB, Southwick and Meister, Schlenker, and iSwiss will all make carbide lined guide bushings. Some make them better than others, some make them faster than others, some make them cheaper than others. You gotta choose what you can live with. I'll always buy Hardinge if I can wait a week or two, they seem to be the highest quality. S&M are the best after that. KEB will make specials SUPER fast, but they aren't always as nice as Hardinge (good people to work with though). iSwiss, I've only bought a couple from, just to try them, and they seemed to be good quality, and relatively quick. Schlenker are very nice, but almost never in stock, in my experience.

 

[Dualkit]

Hardinge, KEB, Southwick and Meister, Schlenker, and iSwiss will all make carbide lined guide bushings. Some make them better than others, some make them faster than others, some make them cheaper than others. You gotta choose what you can live with. I'll always buy Hardinge if I can wait a week or two, they seem to be the highest quality. S&M are the best after that. KEB will make specials SUPER fast, but they aren't always as nice as Hardinge (good people to work with though). iSwiss, I've only bought a couple from, just to try them, and they seemed to be good quality, and relatively quick. Schlenker are very nice, but almost never in stock, in my experience.

On the Hardinge guide bushings how much oversize can you go? I found with the S & M +.002 is about it and you can go -.005.

 

[Dualkit]

Thats pretty cool. and super fast.

I like that style tool bars they use, mine is a twin turret. which I have no complaints about it just takes lots of room.

On another note
I had to stop the sub spindle from finishing the job because I started getting collet marks in the part I think the collet was starting to squeeze a little much , not sure yet. we did appear to hold those .005 breaks dead nuts as I 100% checked over 150 pcs

Do you have any pics? The place I worked at in the late 80's through early 90's had about 10 F12's but not a single one had a sub spindle. The only sub spindled machines we had were a couple brand new Citizen L16's.

 

[TeachMePlease]

On the Hardinge guide bushings how much oversize can you go? I found with the S & M +.002 is about it and you can go -.005.

I couldn't tell you. All my stock is+/- .001" or better.

 

[Dualkit]

I couldn't tell you. All my stock is+/- .001" or better.

My issues are mainly with aluminum, there is no one near that centerless grinds bars and the local metal yard's small rounds can be way off nominal. I run a lot of 1/4" and it will come in as high as .258. Highest I can run is .255 as I lapped out a .250 that would take .252 to that size.
The aluminum jobs are all simple ones where ordering tight tolerance bars online would eat into the profits. The local metal and plastic suppliers here leave a lot to be desired. Sourcing supplies is one thing I miss about California. Richmond Virginia might look just like East Los Angeles, but they don't have 20% of the supplies or support services for a machine shop.

 

[Delw]

Do you have any pics? The place I worked at in the late 80's through early 90's had about 10 F12's but not a single one had a sub spindle. The only sub spindled machines we had were a couple brand new Citizen L16's.

 

[Delw]

The way the sub spindle works is actually pretty cool, the sub drops down with a M-code then as the x axis moves the sub spindle stays stationary to centerline . Its kinda like a old tracer style machine back in the day. granted you only have about 2-3"inch of x travel with the sub out.

 

[Delw]

My issues are mainly with aluminum, there is no one near that centerless grinds bars and the local metal yard's small rounds can be way off nominal. I run a lot of 1/4" and it will come in as high as .258. Highest I can run is .255 as I lapped out a .250 that would take .252 to that size.
The aluminum jobs are all simple ones where ordering tight tolerance bars online would eat into the profits. The local metal and plastic suppliers here leave a lot to be desired. Sourcing supplies is one thing I miss about California. Richmond Virginia might look just like East Los Angeles, but they don't have 20% of the supplies or support services for a machine shop.

we run cold finish certed american alum. its usually with in .002 of tol. or better. some if not I get it centerless ground. That beings said I have some nominal sizes and collets on .002 over and .002 under just incase.
this job I ran with the ss tubing was .123 and I was using a .125 bushing, the problem lies with crushing the tubing and collet marks when you dont have the correct size bushing so you have to be really careful. also you will get run out if your not super carefull and tend to puch the machine.
out of round .001 per side is alot when you have a .005 breaks and other small callouts and to be honest the parts look like crap under a comparator if you have run out over .001 on a small rad or chamfer on the edges. so being careful during set-up is the key.

we ran a 4000 pcs job of alum a long while ago and the stock varied .005 in the bar itself. had to pull the job and get it all centerless.

 

[Dualkit]

The picture is bringing back some memories. With the F-series the headstock is stationary, correct? Can you drill with that sub or is it just for support and picking off parts?

 

[Delw]

The head stock on far right is staionary, that holds the collet. the bushing goes in the sliding head just to the left of the collet chuck.
I can pretty much do anything with the sub spindle but I dont, as I drill even long deep holes with the drills on the turret. I have set-back holders if I need them( teachmeplease would know more about them and the proper terms).
to be honest even thought I been running it for 5+ years I'm still leanring stuff on it. I need to start playing with the live tooling and the sub more.
The live sub also index's as well the main spindle
I have a rotary sliding head so I can run hex stock as well.
The shop we got this from had about every option you can get on the machine back then and huge memory. but I lost the prms and need to get the right ones in tit for the memory card counters and everything else.
we had prm back ups but they didnt have alot of prms citizen didnt even have this machine on file and had to send gerneric prms.
I have 4 binders of stuff and maintence updates with it just never looked through them all yet.
I got like 30-50 tool holders and 20+ live tool holders and some other parts for the machine along with 40-50 pairs oc bushings and collets.
what I do like about it is I can cut 3in long 10-32 od threads and get less than .0003 taper.
the sub supposibly I can tap with also