VDI-40 alignment

Spruewell

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I got some tool holders for my Hyundai SKT28 running VDI40. I seem to be having an alignment issue with a plain bore tool holder (the plain metal one, not the black oxide finish) that mounts radially on the turret to hold drills and boring bars. Unfortunately I am unable to post a video. Running a dial indicator along the outside of the holder from front to back is showing about .01" of misalignment. On a the drill, I'm seeing about .1" misalignment over about 5". The tool holder I'm having issue with is used and came out of a machine that was holding it reversed from what I am now. I think it came out of a MAZAK.

Any suggestions for correcting this problem? As it stands, I will not be able to use this holder for drills



turret.jpegvdi40.jpeg
 

lobust

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what does that turret have for aligning the tool blocks? All radial vdi turrets that I have seen have something for that purpose...
 

lobust

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I looked a bit closer at the photos, the turret disk seems too narrow to have any adjustment pegs or blocks built in, but a photo of an empty tool socket would confirm.

If there's actually nothing there, then it's probably supposed to be used with the Hardinge style jack screw holders, like so:

 

Spruewell

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There is an alignment pin on the turret that the coolant runs through. However, it isn't hard to remove. I was thinking about doing something like the Hardinge style alignment jack screws in your picture. My other (less desirable) option was to re-bore the holder. It's a 50mm bore and doesn't seem to be parallel with the outside face.

image0 (8).jpeg
 

lobust

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The coolant port pin is part of the original vdi spec from a time when radial vdi didn’t really exist. It works well enough for axial vdi and for basic turning holders on radial vdi turrets, but it isn’t accurate enough for axial tools on radial turrets, so usually there is another mechanism provided.

You don’t need to remove the coolant port pin as there is enough clearance in it that it won’t interfere with additional alignment. You’ll find that if you snug the clamp screw up on the holder in question you’ll be able to indicate it straight by tapping it with a soft mallet before fully tightening the screw.
 

Spruewell

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Nope. Tried that. Even without the pin I was not able to get it to align. It was closer, but the taper of the wedge bushing that draws it in and locks it in place isn’t right either.
 

lobust

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Nope. Tried that. Even without the pin I was not able to get it to align. It was closer, but the taper of the wedge bushing that draws it in and locks it in place isn’t right either.
In that case it's probably just a bad holder. It looks shop made TBH.

If you want to keep it, you could rebore it in-situ and use a bigger sleeve.

I'd probably bin it though, radial VDI holders are expensive new, but they're a common item on ebay.
 

chad883

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The holders for my Mazak SQT have a pin on the holder that fits in a bore on the turret. The pins are eccentric so you can rotate the pin for alignment.
 

Spruewell

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The alignment/coolant pins are straight and mounted in the turret on this machine. Replacing them with eccentric ones might work, but how do you adjust them without removing the tool? There would be no access to them while the tool holder is mounted. You would have to remove it, guess at an adjustment, re-mount it, check alignment, repeat and repeat until you either get lucky or give up.

I think I'll try re-boring it. For what new ones cost, and even used ones on ebay, It should be worth the effort. I was hoping for an easy fix, but kinda already knew there wasn't one. While I'm at it, I'll make the set screw alignment block for it like Hardinge does.
 

lobust

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The alignment/coolant pins are straight and mounted in the turret on this machine. Replacing them with eccentric ones might work, but how do you adjust them without removing the tool? There would be no access to them while the tool holder is mounted. You would have to remove it, guess at an adjustment, re-mount it, check alignment, repeat and repeat until you either get lucky or give up.
Your coolant ports are standard. If you remove/alter them you are likely to affect the function of normal vdi tools.

The mazak alignment pins are totally different and locate in a hole further back on the mounting face.
 

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I'd be checking the true alingment of the turret first. Pull a tool, and clock the mounting face in the Z direction. It's a folly to be checking anything over the lands of a U-drill. That's what I think you are seeing when you measure 0.1" per 5", over a drill. That 2.5mm over 125mm in Heathen meausurments.* You'd be lucky to push a U-dril 2x before its rubbing I wouldn't trust a check over a measured drill. You have relief, land wear, most drills will have back taper for clearance. Go to gospel, and clock the raw face you mount the tooling blocks to. Get the Turret gospel, anything you mount on them after that, its only the manufacturing tolerences of that tooling block you have to live with. You have 12 of them to live with. MAKE THE TURRET DATUM.

You can clock the face of the turret in the X direction, Its normally good enough. Its a Hyundi. Turret will be pression ground all over. Other option is too high or too low. As if you had a Y axis, weather you had it or not. Most common cause or turret mis-alignment, is a crash, generally knocks the turret high with an upper turret like yours is you're are turning C.W, Lower turrets go down. Dont believe this is your problem. Buts it's remarkably common. There usually only 8 M12 bolts holding the turret drum to the centre axle. Bolts and 2 case hardened taper pins. Which bend. They are in under your number plate, way smaller P.C.D, which is why they let go

I'd clock your raw turret up, get that gospel, The entire turret assembly can rotate on top of the Z axis slide. When you are looking at it from the operators door, it can slew C.W or C.C.W, There hasn't been a holder built that is 0.100 per 6". Brick layers do better than that.
I dont know how many Hardinges I've tuned up over the life time. But be assured the entire turret can sit cock eyed to the Z saddle. So your turret is sitting cock eyed to the spindle centre line. At 0.1" / per 5" (100 thou in 5 inches). Thats pretty shit house, spec is 0.020mm per 150mm for every machine builder on the planet, past WW2 when Schlinger drafted the standard. Nothing in magic adjustable tool holders will accomadate that. I personally hate adjustable tool holders. Operators just bring my VooDoo down

And it doesn't have to be a big crash, decent broken tool can cause the turrent drum to slip, or knock the turret out of parrallel alignment. Some thing has to give. In preference to your spindle bearings.

Wouldn't it be a case, that the holder you are haviving issue with, is the one that has to be on centre line.? You wouldn't necesarily know if a turning tool was off centre apart from the Tit it might leave. And that get's negated by passing though way past centre.

As always, regards. Phil.

* Bloke I had an enmourmous amount of time for, but did his craft in the 60's. Described Imperial as Christian. Metric as Heathen
 
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Machtool

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Those two tools .were they, tool 6 and tool 11? Notable stick out differece off the turret drum. I'm going to say 50mm being metric. Typical turret rotation error, If you wern't 11.000 miles away, I'd come fix it for you. of which it a 90 mimute job. 45 minutes are pulling bsck the Z axis gaurds. In which case I'd charge you a minium of 4 hours.
 

Machtool

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.https://machinistboard.com/index.php?attachments/image0-8-jpeg.3513/View attachment 3513
[/QUOTE]
I have a problem with this pitctue. There is no plug in this gaping hole. I've dabbled with those gear meshes. You dont want to know how costly it is, once those interenals chew up. Best to treat it like Mummas, best bits, you dont want any sharp, swarf, cuttings down there.

And that's all I have to say about that. Keep your bung holes clean.
 

lobust

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I have a problem with this pitctue. There is no plug in this gaping hole. I've dabbled with those gear meshes. You dont want to know how costly it is, once those interenals chew up. Best to treat it like Mummas, best bits, you dont want any sharp, swarf, cuttings down there.

And that's all I have to say about that. Keep your bung holes clean.
I think he only posted that picture for my benefit - I asked to see a picture of the naked VDI mount to figure out if he had any secondary alignment on that turret.

I can see plugs in the first picture...
 

Machtool

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Only because I luv you like a brother. I'll take your word for it. Message still shouldn't be lost. Lots of science internal of those turrets. Dont leave them open for long. I'd rather repair a main spindle than some of those turrets.

As always. Regards Pkil.
 

Machtool

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To the point, I've had to develop more gizmo's for turrets than spindles past 10 years. I have one I engineerd for the tool drive on Mori NL series lathes. Its this 7 deg tapered tang thing that goes down and engages the live tool drive. You can clock it up using the X axis. All precission ground. Its that old school number of 2096 to adjust the live tool orient parameter.. I'm fairly certain even Mori Japan wouldn't have a gizmo like mine. To be fair, you only have to look down the hole, though the turret and see that the live tool drive is roughly north / south. Its only a problem when you get it completely wromg. Tangs of all live tools have to pass the oriented positiom of the drive shaft. They have 0.3mm (12 thou) clearance on the tang. But my OCD prevented me from doing that. So I made a gizmo that I can clock 0 -0.020mm

As always. Regards Phil.
 

lobust

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To the point, I've had to develop more gizmo's for turrets than spindles past 10 years. I have one I engineerd for the tool drive on Mori NL series lathes. Its this 7 deg tapered tang thing that goes down and engages the live tool drive. You can clock it up using the X axis. All precission ground. Its that old school number of 2096 to adjust the live tool orient parameter.. I'm fairly certain even Mori Japan wouldn't have a gizmo like mine. To be fair, you only have to look down the hole, though the turret and see that the live tool drive is roughly north / south. Its only a problem when you get it completely wromg. Tangs of all live tools have to pass the oriented positiom of the drive shaft. They have 0.3mm (12 thou) clearance on the tang. But my OCD prevented me from doing that. So I made a gizmo that I can clock 0 -0.020mm

As always. Regards Phil.
I've never had a tang drive one (well, I had one with tang drive but it was an ancient oddball Sauter with fixed transmission to the live stations) - Spline drive on all the ones I've used - fairly tolerant of drive angle for the most part...

DIN 5480 Sauter is quite neat - has a spring loaded collar on the input spline of the tool with an orient notch, keeps the tool drive locked when it's not engaged.

Tang drive seems to be the norm for BMT turrets? Never had one of those...
 

Machtool

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On a Mori. Its a back working execise. Get the turret where it should be, them you can rotate what is esentially a right angle gear box that is the live tool drive with in the clearance of the bolt hole patten. None of it is dowelled.

I've always admirred clasic machines such as Boehringer, whilst there would have been a spacer under a turret, if you wantwd to adjust or restore anything, it was one adjustment.
 

Spruewell

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.https://machinistboard.com/index.php?attachments/image0-8-jpeg.3513/View attachment 3513
I have a problem with this pitctue. There is no plug in this gaping hole. I've dabbled with those gear meshes. You dont want to know how costly it is, once those interenals chew up. Best to treat it like Mummas, best bits, you dont want any sharp, swarf, cuttings down there.

And that's all I have to say about that. Keep your bung holes clean.
[/QUOTE]

I only had the thing exposed for illustration purposes. I wouldn't dare do anything that could introduce debris into that area. I did however have to clean out inside of there. It seems the previous caretaker was less worried about that sort of thing. I ran the indicator along the tool holder as well, not just the drill. still out of whack pretty significantly. I'll double check the alignment of the turret itself just to make sure I'm not missing anything there. I've been working on other projects lately, so hoping to get back to this one soon
 
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