Haas admits it’s making machines lighter to save money.

[g-coder05]

Well this sucks. I was watching a vid on the new TM0p and the head of engineering admits they are making casting lighter to save money in a market where cast cost more. Such a shame,. I would like to have one of those in the garage.

 

[Plastikdreams]

What if that sacrifice doesn't affect operation?

Im not saying you are but, so many people harp on haas because they are "light". But the still get the job done. Maybe not as fast as some and maybe not as quiet but the job gets done. We have some top of the line 5ax moris in the plant, they are maybe 2 years old every few months there seems to be some kind of issue with them. The 3 mini mills that are like 10 years old or more just keep going and going. All of them eat nothing but nickle based custom superalloys. The stuff is no joke.

 

[Herding Cats]

They could do like Hardinge and start filling them with concrete......thank goodness I know the scrap yard owner when I went to scrap that piece of shit called a superslant

 

[Vancbiker]

One should factor in the fact that a 5 axis machine is about 10 times more complex than a 3 axis. With more complexity comes a greater opportunity for problems.

Since the Moris are post the DMG/Mori merger that weighs in too as DMG were not very reliable machines.

You’d have a whole different experience if the Moris were 3 axis, say SV400 machines of similar vintage to the Haas you are comparing.

 

[Herding Cats]

I would buy a Mori Seiki in a heart beat, but a DMG Mori would have to be made in Japan and a stupid good deal for me to consider it. While they may still make a few good machines, or so I've heard, IMO that's all null and void by all the problem children they pump out.

 

[g-coder05]

What if that sacrifice doesn't affect operation?

Im not saying you are but, so many people harp on haas because they are "light". But the still get the job done. Maybe not as fast as some and maybe not as quiet but the job gets done. We have some top of the line 5ax moris in the plant, they are maybe 2 years old every few months there seems to be some kind of issue with them. The 3 mini mills that are like 10 years old or more just keep going and going. All of them eat nothing but nickle based custom superalloys. The stuff is no joke.

I’m not knocking Haas in any sense, I was a bit surprised when I watched this vid tonight since I’ve been a contract app engineer for them since 2014.

I just felt from a marketing standpoint he should have kept the weight reduction to himself. The hard core Japanese machine supporters thrive on stuff like that and any competing salesman would surely exploit that comment.

They could do like Hardinge and start filling them with concrete......thank goodness I know the scrap yard owner when I went to scrap that piece of shit called a superslant

Same as Centroid did in the 90’s. Cramming 2000 [HASH=72]#’s[/HASH] of grout in the column to have weight claim.

 

[Delw]

wasnt there another major builder that used concrete in the castings years back? was kinda a epoxy concrete something?

 

[Herding Cats]

Same as Centroid did in the 90’s. Cramming 2000 [HASH=72]#’s[/HASH] of grout in the column to have weight claim.

I guess it is supposed to help dampen vibrations, specifically frequencies cast iron struggles with. But call me old school I like cast, lots and lots of cast.....just ask my rigger

 

[Mhajicek]

My machine tool rep told me they're expecting big price increases soon, as casting prices are going up 500%.

 

[Mr. Atoz]

If my memory serves me well (good luck) I remember something about numerous machine tools being made out of mostly concrete during WWII. They knew the life would be relatively short, and accuracy compromised, but they would do the job needed. We pretty much simply out produced our way to victory over our enemies.

 

[Herding Cats]

My machine tool rep told me they're expecting big price increases soon, as casting prices are going up 500%.

I would think the castings only make up a couple percent of the cost to produce a machining center. Sounds like an excuse to charge more lol

 

[Doug]

My machine tool rep told me they're expecting big price increases soon, as casting prices are going up 500%.

Wasn't the original Haas Toolroom mill a weldment ? It did look kind of spindly though.

Read some of the Lincoln electric books, they gave out awards to companies submitting their conversions
from castings to weldments. Mostly 1970's as foundries were closing up everywhere.
And before you chastise weldments, some are successful, it matters how they are designed.
Some companies used the conversion to also cheapen up the machines too much.

I like to add in pre-stressing, as well as dampening.

Look up "RDD lathes" they made some of the largest, made from weldments.

000154 - R.D. & D.-LATHES, ENGINE

 

[lobust]

wasnt there another major builder that used concrete in the castings years back? was kinda a epoxy concrete something?

Gildemeister used epoxy granite for the bases of some of their CTX TC millturns, prior to the Mori merger. Those machines are reputed to have exceptional accuracy and surface finish characteristics. DMG Mori still make the CTX TC line, but I don't know if they still use the EG castings or not. They are more expensive than the otherwise similar NTX line.

Edit: ISTR they called it "Polymer concrete"

 

[g-coder05]

I can’t knock welded frame machines. All Cincinnati Areow series I and II were weldments made in Birmingham England and I had a dozen or so from 750’s to 1500’s and they were every bit of a top tier machine. I do have to admit that if you were behind the machine and it hit a chatter spot the lifting holes were like megaphones. I just wonder now how much better of a machine they would have been with some grout added.

 

[LOTT]

I'm curious what the TM-0 price will land at. It could become the ideal educational and garage machine, and wipe out the "higher end" Tormachs. A few years ago it would have been my ideal machine.

The engineers candor was surprising, but most of the buyers are going to be size and weight sensitive, and I appreciate the honesty.

 

[Plastikdreams]

Thing is, what if the reduction allowed them to make it more rigid?

 

[Cole2534]

What if that sacrifice doesn't affect operation?

Im not saying you are but, so many people harp on haas because they are "light". But the still get the job done. Maybe not as fast as some and maybe not as quiet but the job gets done. We have some top of the line 5ax moris in the plant, they are maybe 2 years old every few months there seems to be some kind of issue with them. The 3 mini mills that are like 10 years old or more just keep going and going. All of them eat nothing but nickle based custom superalloys. The stuff is no joke.

That explain your moniker? lol

 

[Mr. Atoz]

They were using concrete to make machine tools in WW I. https://www.engineeringforchange.or...d-war-i-technology-meets-21st-century-design/

 

[Plastikdreams]

That explain your moniker? lol

?

 

[TeachMePlease]

?

Juxtaposition. Your name is Plastikdreams, but you cut superalloys. Maybe you dream of cutting plastik instead of terrible metals.... Just how I read it.