I purchased a mill that uses mt5 tooling It came with some long bars and Now am starting to get some Shorter tooling for it is there a collet system that works with a morse? i was looking at er40 Or should i go with something different?
Hbm tooling
- Thread starter idacal
- Start date
What do you want to hold onto with a collet?
For my HBM I have set screw endmill holders, face mills, fly cutters, boring heads and devlieg boring bars.
Are individual holders hard to get or expensive for MT5? Mine is 50 taper so I have no experience with MT in a HBM.
For my HBM I have set screw endmill holders, face mills, fly cutters, boring heads and devlieg boring bars.
Are individual holders hard to get or expensive for MT5? Mine is 50 taper so I have no experience with MT in a HBM.
ER is fine.
Get some common size solid holders like 1/2”, 3/4, 1” and use the ER for odd sized reamers and fill in the blanks.
These are available so that’s your easiest option
ER40 5MT COLLET CHUCK TOOL HOLDER
Get some common size solid holders like 1/2”, 3/4, 1” and use the ER for odd sized reamers and fill in the blanks.
These are available so that’s your easiest option
ER40 5MT COLLET CHUCK TOOL HOLDER
DeVlieg driver
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You will want end mill holders with the lock slot.
Same with the collet, if possible. Make one if not. There are end mill collets with sliding plugs that capture the Weldon notch in the TG series. I don't know anything about ER collets.
Did you buy the machine from Phil? Really nice sounding machine except for the mt5 spindle.
Same with the collet, if possible. Make one if not. There are end mill collets with sliding plugs that capture the Weldon notch in the TG series. I don't know anything about ER collets.
Did you buy the machine from Phil? Really nice sounding machine except for the mt5 spindle.
yes its Phils old machine. thats what im running into is finding locking end mill holders reasonable but I will run across some eventually. pdq has a master holder with locking bar haven't got a quote back yet. my old mill is a bit sloppy to try to cut a lock slot but I may try it just to see if it will do it on one of those chinese ebay ones . i just got the mill off the trailer and its not powered or leveled yet.
Mud
Well-known member
I bought a couple standard MT5 EM holders from Star Tool here - https://www.startoolsupply.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4084
I assume they are Chinese, but they look nice and work fine, best prices I found.
I assume they are Chinese, but they look nice and work fine, best prices I found.
Is that the spade at the back of MT’s to prevent twisting? Don’t you have a drawbar and/or need one? Doesn’t a sideloaded taper just fall right out like a side loaded drill chuck with a Jacobs?
MT HBM stuff has a slot milled through the taper for a locking key. You pound in the tapered locking key so the taper can't come loose. I never used one, but have scrapped a few of them.
I'd like to know why Morse taper HBM's always used a draw key instead of a threaded drawbar. seems kinda dumb to me. A drawbar is pretty easy to automate for fast tool changes. My HBM is 1979 and it's drawbar is driven by a little 1/4 horse gearmotor. There's a hex poking out the back for a wrench if it gets stuck.
Herding Cats
Hardplates
A drawbar setup will either have to be anemic to maintain the tang on the holder or will require holders with no tang. With no tang you are relying on friction of the taper to keep it from spinning. A locking key will take a larger cut.
I would venture to say running MT is kind of a legacy thing. A proper 50 NMTB will would outperform on all fronts.
Personally I would investigate to see if there is enough material to hard turn and maybe grind it out to a 50 taper as well as there being access for a brawbar.
The tang! Duh! I was thinking about some old vertical mills I have seen with what appeared to be mt spindles and threaded drawbars.
No joke on the difference from MT5 to 50 taper. MT5 is like R8 size. Mt6 is 40 taper sized at the spindle mouth.
Idacal, are you sure it's MT5 and not MT6? I bought a couple smaller G&L's like yours at auction just for the boring bars. The bars were MT6 to fit the old G&L spindles. I turned them to 2" to drive with NMTB50 set screw holders.
The more I think about it MT5 seems real small for a 4" HBM with 15 or so spindle ponies.
No joke on the difference from MT5 to 50 taper. MT5 is like R8 size. Mt6 is 40 taper sized at the spindle mouth.
Idacal, are you sure it's MT5 and not MT6? I bought a couple smaller G&L's like yours at auction just for the boring bars. The bars were MT6 to fit the old G&L spindles. I turned them to 2" to drive with NMTB50 set screw holders.
The more I think about it MT5 seems real small for a 4" HBM with 15 or so spindle ponies.
Being dense here but even if you use a tanged solid holder won’t it just wiggle right out under sideload? That’s dangerous!? Like If I have a mt3 drill in a cat40 adapter and tried to side load it, it’ll fall right out. MTs need to be loaded axially and in compression of they loosen themselves.
The Hbms I’ve seen are NMTB 50 and have a drawbar. I would think a MT5 with a drawbar would not need much of a drive dog, but I’d trade using the drive dog for using the drawbar any day. Itd be bad to have that mt come loose and rattle round when your trying to mill
The Hbms I’ve seen are NMTB 50 and have a drawbar. I would think a MT5 with a drawbar would not need much of a drive dog, but I’d trade using the drive dog for using the drawbar any day. Itd be bad to have that mt come loose and rattle round when your trying to mill
Herding Cats
Hardplates
They use a tapered key you pound in from the side to retain the taper holder. Kind of the exact opposite of a drift key you would use to take apart a MT connection.
its a mt 5 it came with a pallet of bars including some mt 6 bars. it does seem kind of small for the horse power but it is what it is I was looking for one of those adjustable draw keys but I will end up making it work some how
Attachments
That's a wild support structure under that thing!
One bit of advice- I have moved my HBM a dozen times in my shop trying to fit it in just the right spot to maximize space (because it's f'n huge) . I've tried the 45 angle along a wall and in a corner just like you have it there and I was unhappy with it over time. Trying to get it against a wall or shove the back of the quill into a corner leads to it becoming a shit collector more than a tool. It gets piled with heavy shit.
I squared mine up out in the open, about 15' feet to a wall, put some cabinets and finger racks behind it for tooling and bars and angle plates and now it's used all the time and doesn't collect as much shit.
Just throwing it out there. Everyone's got their own way of doing stuff. I'm regularly wrong, but I have had many great ideas about where I can setup my HBM that turned into not great results.
One bit of advice- I have moved my HBM a dozen times in my shop trying to fit it in just the right spot to maximize space (because it's f'n huge) . I've tried the 45 angle along a wall and in a corner just like you have it there and I was unhappy with it over time. Trying to get it against a wall or shove the back of the quill into a corner leads to it becoming a shit collector more than a tool. It gets piled with heavy shit.
I squared mine up out in the open, about 15' feet to a wall, put some cabinets and finger racks behind it for tooling and bars and angle plates and now it's used all the time and doesn't collect as much shit.
Just throwing it out there. Everyone's got their own way of doing stuff. I'm regularly wrong, but I have had many great ideas about where I can setup my HBM that turned into not great results.
Mud
Well-known member
I found the same thing and thought the same when I saw that photo. After 40+ years of big stuff in small space I now put machines out in the open as well as possible and put smaller machines and cabinets and tool boxes and workbenches at their backs.
I was wondering if I would like it there, have to try it and see, I guess .That was the only way to get it in there and still have a chance to pull a rig in. but Im out of space now, so if this thing isn't useful at least a few times a year. it will be gone. I had to get my old shaper moved out to one of my brothers places so he can dream about using it, eventually it will dawn on him to inserts are cheap and just use the mill
The biggest upgrade you can do to a borer (that you're actually going to use frequently) is to adapt the spindle to Capto. It is a massive improvement, at the cost of the actual tools being expensive.
I did it to our little toolroom Kearns years ago and it increases the usability for small tool work tenfold.
Last year I had a plan, that sadly didn't come to fruition, to acquire a larger borer that also had a MT5 spindle. I had a few different ideas on how to do modify the spindle nose to C5 or C6 that would have worked fine, so it's possible. It would entail actually modifying the spindle nose though. After you've done the spindle, it's fairly trivial to make a facing slide block to mount a capto holder.
I did it to our little toolroom Kearns years ago and it increases the usability for small tool work tenfold.
Last year I had a plan, that sadly didn't come to fruition, to acquire a larger borer that also had a MT5 spindle. I had a few different ideas on how to do modify the spindle nose to C5 or C6 that would have worked fine, so it's possible. It would entail actually modifying the spindle nose though. After you've done the spindle, it's fairly trivial to make a facing slide block to mount a capto holder.
Don't they normally have pads poured under the supports, with just the top portion sticking up to support the table?
Normally a little borer like that would just sit on top of a single pad, outriggers and base at the same level. For some reason G&L did make a few borers like that where the outriggers are down inside cavities in the pad and lids made to cover the gap. I have no idea why. Seems like a lot of work to go to to remove a trip hazard.
I would put a nice quality DRO at the top of the list. Way before changing the spindle taper.
My 6 HBM requirements were 1) built in rotary 2) DRO 3) 50 taper 4) one piece base 5) power clamping 6) tailstock
I would sure like a facing slide, but haven't found one for a good price yet.
I bought mine for what I thought was a good deal considering the rigging situation was pretty f'd. There was a 60' deep vertical X-ray pit between my machine and the door. Had to take it out a narrow alleyway door with some tricky rigging.
A couple years later I could have bought a premo condition Wotan CNC HBM about the same size with rotary and tooling for about 1/2 what I paid for my manual Kuraki. The Wotan was in a shallow pit for coolant containment though. I think it would have been a real tricky bit of rigging to get it out. It also did not have a tailstock.