Looking at used machines?

[Vancbiker]

Haven’t been many threads on this subject yet but as the site grows they are bound to come.

Folks, when you are considering buying a used machine you are often mostly concerned about its condition. This overlooks one huge thing. Does it come with all the manuals and documentation? If not, you really should consider it as losing half it’s value.

Without things like the electrical diagram and ladder diagram it is nearly impossible to keep an older machine running.

Without the machine builders programming manual you will not have information about the function of M codes defined by the builder.

Without the machine builder’s operation and maintenance manuals you won’t have information on recovery procedures for reference or origin positions, toolchanger recovery, and so on.

Without a parameter list or backup, a memory failure can leave you with a heavy paperweight.

Often it is very difficult and expensive to get this information from the builder for older machines. Sometimes it’s impossible.

If the seller can not provide most of the items mentioned above, doing some homework to find out availability would be vital before making a purchase. If not easily available, consider the cost of the time you will waste trying to fix a problem and factor that into the purchase price.

 

[Herding Cats]

I'm gonna stick this thread cause....well cause it's priceless info many had to learn the hard way.

 

[Mr. M]

Wait, you guys actually look at them 1st?!

 

[ripperj]

Good advice…The exception id say would be a Fadal, while hard copies with the machine would be great, all the docs are available from numerous sources online.
On a Fadal the parameters are written inside the back of the console on the door

 

[Mud]

Ditto with a Prototrak, I think all the software and all manuals are available online, at least they were for my older bed mill. There are a couple pages of download files on their site.
Something to watch for are shipping brackets and setup fixtures, they often get misplaced and you don't know they are missing until you need one. For example some lathes ship with a setup bracket, it gets clamped into a turret toolholder slot to hold a precision level to aid leveling the machine.

 

[DavidScott]

I would also add call the MTB up before buying to determine how much help they will be with tech and parts, and if they have a "registration" fee. You don't want a nasty surprise after you buy it, like having to pay $2500 before they will even talk to you or sell you parts.

 

[AJ H]

Yup just bought a Star KNC20 and have no way to level it

 

[Spruewell]

Leveling a machine is nice, but not necessary. Unless of course it is critical to the flow of coolant back into the sump or it will operate in conjunction with another piece of equipment like a bar feeder or a robot. Otherwise “level” isn’t important to anything but your particular level of OCD.
I totally agree with the original post. I’ve bought all my machines used. Fortunately they all came with manuals or I would have been totally hosed. I didn’t really think too much about the importance of those until later when I had to do some in depth maintenance on the machines.

 

[Oldwrench]

I don't buy used CNCs but I have no worries at all buying used conventional machinery. We bought four used Barber-Colman gear hobbers and got the parts manual with them. Dealing with O-rings and oil lines is a ton easier than restoring lost parameters or diagnosing a bad chip on a board (at least for me it is, probably a generational thing) Plus any wear is immediately visible, whereas on a machine with way covers you can't see if the ballscrews are packed full of chips. Just bought a used Eldorado 30" gundrill and just about every last nut and bolt was inspectable.

 

[mach ramsey mn]

Any body know anything about this machine: https://www.machinesused.com/lots/O...ontrol,-Chip-Conveyor,-Tooling-and-More-40777
It looks like they might be out of business. I’d suppose parts might be a bit precarious…

 

[Vancbiker]

An orphan for sure. That said, if it was in good shape mechanically, electrically it is pretty easy to get parts.

PCC, the last owner of Olufson has a good reputation locally for putting companies out of business.

 

[mach ramsey mn]

That’s the conclusion I came to when doing research on this thing. I couldn’t even find real specifications for it.

 

[Garwood]

Any body know anything about this machine: https://www.machinesused.com/lots/O...ontrol,-Chip-Conveyor,-Tooling-and-More-40777
It looks like they might be out of business. I’d suppose parts might be a bit precarious…

I would love a vertical lathe that size, but with a 16" chuck. The small footprint looks amazing.

 

[Spruewell]

Looks neat. But I don’t see much advantage to it over a slant bed lathe. The small footprint is a plus. It also appears to have suffered a catastrophic crash bad enough to break a tool out of the turret leaving that position useless. It would have to go pretty cheap at auction

 

[lobust]

Even as an orphan it's probably a fairly safe bet as long as the parameters are safe and all manuals are included.

There is probably nothing very proprietary about that machine if it needed parts.

Fanuc control, no problems there.

The turret is a Sauter and parts should be available no problem. The tool disk is a custom job with capto sockets. All the capto socket parts are available from sandvik, so if anyone wanted to they could make a new tool disk fairly easy as it's just a few bored holes and the capto parts bolt in.

I'd be surprised if there was anything on that machine that is unobtanium, short of castings.

It's a nice compact machine and I'd be tempted if it were local to me.

 

[Vancbiker]

Even as an orphan it's probably a fairly safe bet as long as the parameters are safe and all manuals are included.

There is probably nothing very proprietary about that machine if it needed parts.

Fanuc control, no problems there.

The turret is a Sauter and parts should be available no problem. The tool disk is a custom job with capto sockets. All the capto socket parts are available from sandvik, so if anyone wanted to they could make a new tool disk fairly easy as it's just a few bored holes and the capto parts bolt in.

I'd be surprised if there was anything on that machine that is unobtanium, short of castings.

It's a nice compact machine and I'd be tempted if it were local to me.

I agree as long as it has a full set of documents.

A vertical lathe has some advantages as well as disadvantages. The main disadvantage is chips are almost impossible to clear from a blind bore. A really stout coolant system helps. Loading and unloading is easier on a vertical, especially on larger machines.

 

[Doug]

I would love a vertical lathe that size, but with a 16" chuck. The small footprint looks amazing.

Motch & Merryweather made what you seek.

Warner Swasey was working on a pair much like the M&M, but upside down, and with automated
part hand off from first Op to 2nd OP just before they folded.

55th & Carnegie had a mural on a wall depicting it, search the patent office, IIRC around 1992, for the details
of the machine.

 

[Vancbiker]

Consolidated Metco had a pair of W&S vertical spindle machines. Left and right hand face to face for machining aluminum semi truck hubs. A couple of the shittiest built machines I ever worked on. Kind seemed like no regard was taken that these were going to have coolant used in them and they would make chips. Also they had no counterweight for the Z yet the ballscrew was not very large diameter for the load carried so within about 4 years service new screws were required. After about 6 years old both were scrapped and replaced with a pair of Daewoos. I got out of field service about then so don’t know how well those worked out.

 

[Doug]

I had heard that W&S at the end was pretty bad, what with machines made rough, cross slides held in place with fixtures, moglice injected to bond in place etc.

 

[Vancbiker]

Yes, those W&S machines had some kind of epoxy filling areas where typically shim plates would be. Not any kind of Moglice that I have seen. The ones at ConMet had an orange colored compound. Reminded me of Chockfast used in bedding engines and gearboxes on large boats and ships.

Sad about the demise of W&S, along with so many other US builders. They once built such good machines. They just flopped when it came to CNC. First shop I worked at had 3 W&S turret lathes. Biggest one could have rolled a bowling ball through the spindle. It was WW2 vintage and still easily hold a thou tolerance. 5/8” depth of cut turning and would push a 6” spade drill in aluminum.