Looking at used machines?

[Doug]

The first CNC lathes from W&S are good.
Several SC-27's running Mark Century controls still making chips & money.

 

[lobust]

About 20 years ago I briefly worked at a company that manufactured short proprietary connections and inline valve bodies for subsea oil and gas.

They had about a dozen Mori Seiki VL 25 and 55 vertical lathes. Those things were the absolute dogs bollocks for that work.

They also had a handful of Gildemeister inverted spindle vertical lathes, I can't remember the model, but the spindle actually travelled out of the workzone to pick parts directly off of a conveyor. It was very fast compared to a robot or a gantry.

 

[Barbter]

I loved my W&S wsc6.
Zero thermal growth. Hold 2tenths on a diameter all day even from startup. Compact too.

 

[Barbter]

About 20 years ago I briefly worked at a company that manufactured short proprietary connections and inline valve bodies for subsea oil and gas.

They had about a dozen Mori Seiki VL 25 and 55 vertical lathes. Those things were the absolute dogs bollocks for that work.

They also had a handful of Gildemeister inverted spindle vertical lathes, I can't remember the model, but the spindle actually travelled out of the workzone to pick parts directly off of a conveyor. It was very fast compared to a robot or a gantry.

Memory says Hardinge also offered something very similar?

 

[Oldwrench]

I had heard that W&S at the end was pretty bad, what with machines made rough, cross slides held in place with fixtures, moglice injected to bond in place etc.

It's depressing to imagine what it must have been like working at ANY of the core US machine tool builders toward the end. Unless you're turning big shafts, the heaviest lathe in the world can't keep up with a decent CNC turning center. Just watching G76 thru the window made a believer out of me. I always wanted an American Pacemaker until I saw what must have been the last American lathe at a trade show. It had a servo and ball screw but was unenclosed, with an ordinary square tool turret on the compound. And a beautiful aqua paint job...but a day late and a dollar short. Looking at the last Cincinnati mills you had to wonder what they were thinking, imagining they would compete with the likes of Matsuura or Mori Seiki. I know we could beat this subject to death, but I recommend When the Machine Stopped by Max Holland, the definitive account of the demise of Burgmaster.

 

[Doug]

Do you recall the write up on the W&S SC-32 done by JrIowa over at PM ?
I found that machine for him by simply talking with a former W&S apprentice, who
happened to keep a list of those machines.
IIRC it can handle 120" long parts.

 

[Barbter]

It's depressing to imagine what it must have been like working at ANY of the core US machine tool builders toward the end. Unless you're turning big shafts, the heaviest lathe in the world can't keep up with a decent CNC turning center. Just watching G76 thru the window made a believer out of me. I always wanted an American Pacemaker until I saw what must have been the last American lathe at a trade show. It had a servo and ball screw but was unenclosed, with an ordinary square tool turret on the compound. And a beautiful aqua paint job...but a day late and a dollar short. Looking at the last Cincinnati mills you had to wonder what they were thinking, imagining they would compete with the likes of Matsuura or Mori Seiki. I know we could beat this subject to death, but I recommend When the Machine Stopped by Max Holland, the definitive account of the demise of Burgmaster.

Burgmaster....during my apprenticeship I used and was fascinated by an OB....and one of our divisions had a model 30ch (I think - but larger head CNC version).
When we shut the machine shop, (amongst many other things) I grabbed the OB before it hit the skip and had it in my home workshop, and then when starting out properly, it had pride of place on a bench....but in all that time, I never used it LoL. Didn't have the need.
But it was a class piece of kit.
And I have read quite a bit about Fred Burg - what a guy. And a damn shame about his business.

DON'T BLAME THE JAPANESE : The Rise of Burgmaster Corp. Was a Typically American Saga--andUnfortunately, So Was Its Fall

MANY PEOPLE COME TO Los Angeles to make movies. Fred Burg came to make machines.

www.latimes.com

 

[Oldwrench]

.but in all that time, I never used it LoL. Didn't have the need.
But it was a class piece of kit

We still have a pair of 1Ds which are kept tooled and fixtured for just one job. The operation isn't any quicker than on a Haas but there's zero setup time. Also have an OB on a production stand and table. We retired it when the part it made was discontinued, but it's such a cool item I just couldn't stand to see it go out the door. Original Burg/Tapmatic heads, and cutting oil too. It could be a one-man factory in somebody's basement...if it were 1960...

 

[Barbter]

Just looking (as you do!) and saw this retrofit....

 

[Oldwrench]

saw this retrofit....

Interesting, but I wonder what happened to the milling head? And why would you need a lead-screw-driven table? Drilling machines like the Burgmaster were intended for use with jigs on a smooth table. The jig held the part and guided the tools, you didn't need movement because with drill bushings the tools are always perfectly located. For big drills and counterbores you just used a backstop to prevent the jig from rotating. But all that is a lost art.

 

[MwTech Inc]

We still have a pair of 1Ds which are kept tooled and fixtured for just one job

LOL
Yep, have two of the 1D's setup for a recurring job we do...One custom table the other has the Burg air X/Y template setup table.
Bought 4, 50 Tapmatic's (two each unit), changed the bodies, rebuilt the heads(super easy to do) , found OEM spacers and have
a perfect work circle.
Its faster than the VMC simply cause of part loading. Using oil.....little stinky but the 316 likes it
Getting ready to run another lot.......money makers...in 2024

Interesting read in the book about Burgmaster........lots of older companies went the same way......

 

[Oldwrench]

Yep, have two of the 1D's setup for a recurring job we do...

Wow, and you didn't have to make the spacers...I still have a 5/8-16 tap left over from that...

 

[Barbter]

Interesting, but I wonder what happened to the milling head? And why would you need a lead-screw-driven table? Drilling machines like the Burgmaster were intended for use with jigs on a smooth table. The jig held the part and guided the tools, you didn't need movement because with drill bushings the tools are always perfectly located. For big drills and counterbores you just used a backstop to prevent the jig from rotating. But all that is a lost art.

The ONLY thing that it would have been useful to me for, is for making custom lift control facias - ie long and narrow!
Did them on the Prototrak so it was easy - quick program, then press "GO" and the table rapids to next point/pocket/etc. I had a quick change spindle, and this would be faster.
But for one and two and maybe three offs....obviously production is punched/lasered/folded....
Still, it's cool though

 

[lobust]

Memory says Hardinge also offered something very similar?

It's possible but I'm really not familiar with Hardinge offerings...

The Gildemeisters I think were these, at least older models of the same type:

 

[Barbter]

My bad! The Hardinge was "conventional" ie chuck position at waist height.
Hitachi also had the CS25Y which is like the one you show

Hitachi Seiki CS25Y CNC Vertical Lathe

www.cottandco.com

 

[MwTech Inc]

Wow, and you didn't have to make the spacers..

Ebay can be your friend if your buying......