Anti Haas bashers

[g-coder05]

if you look at the pricing hass isnt really that great, by the time you add normal options. Doosan runs about the same price and weighs more as the hass. not to mention its a more rigid machine and still has box ways

I like the Doosan over Haas in a couple of areas. One, they come with BigPlus spindles standard and Haas doesn't even offer yet. Fanuc is just a bullet proof control that will most likely never go away. The torque curve is a bit higher, and they are a bit heavier.

cons,
The Z axis way covers on the Doosan have been a PITA for me in the past. The moment they come unhooked it's too late before they turn into an accordion. I do wish they had a little more power to take advantage of the big plus spindle. I was looking the other day and even SmartCNC mills offer a 50hp spindle in 40 taper with a BigPlus.

Now the lathes??? Night and day. Haas lathes just, well,,,,, not so good. Taper may be + per foot one day then - per foot the next. The tailstock is a joke. I don’t want to have to go into settings and tell the machine when to slow down when moving the TS. Drive that fkr till it hits the hole.

 

[lobust]

I like the Doosan over Haas in a couple of areas. One, they come with BigPlus spindles standard and Haas doesn't even offer yet. Fanuc is just a bullet proof control that will most likely never go away. The torque curve is a bit higher, and they are a bit heavier.

cons,
The Z axis way covers on the Doosan have been a PITA for me in the past. The moment they come unhooked it's too late before they turn into an accordion. I do wish they had a little more power to take advantage of the big plus spindle. I was looking the other day and even SmartCNC mills offer a 50hp spindle in 40 taper with a BigPlus.

Now the lathes??? Night and day. Haas lathes just, well,,,,, not so good. Taper may be + per foot one day then - per foot the next. The tailstock is a joke. I don’t want to have to go into settings and tell the machine when to slow down when moving the TS. Drive that fkr till it hits the hole.

I don't have a Doosan mill but I have a Y axis lathe. Doosan are a bit schizophrenic about their way cover design. Ours has a really nice scissor action telescopic cover on Z like you find on higher end machines, but an absolutely godawful contraption of a way cover on the subspindle ways. I actually pulled it apart and modified it to work a bit better and not bang so loudly.

I like Doosan generally and would buy another Doosan turning centre or a mill in a heartbeat, but I took a HARD pass on their SMX series millturn machines when shopping for one after hearing some real horror stories about them from a few installs here and in Ireland.

 

[Mike1974]

I like the Doosan over Haas in a couple of areas. One, they come with BigPlus spindles standard and Haas doesn't even offer yet. Fanuc is just a bullet proof control that will most likely never go away. The torque curve is a bit higher, and they are a bit heavier.

cons,
The Z axis way covers on the Doosan have been a PITA for me in the past. The moment they come unhooked it's too late before they turn into an accordion. I do wish they had a little more power to take advantage of the big plus spindle. I was looking the other day and even SmartCNC mills offer a 50hp spindle in 40 taper with a BigPlus.

Now the lathes??? Night and day. Haas lathes just, well,,,,, not so good. Taper may be + per foot one day then - per foot the next. The tailstock is a joke. I don’t want to have to go into settings and tell the machine when to slow down when moving the TS. Drive that fkr till it hits the hole.

I ran and programmed an 2006 era SL30 lathe and it ran great. That said I don't have a frame of reference to compare to, but we ran 10-12" dia stock 4140 prehard. Roughed with the LMNX inserts, ran basically same family of parts for years without issue. They were little shorties though so can't really speak to taper issues. I also had to cut a piece of hardened D2, about 16" diameter and 10" long. Welded up some extended jaws, made a faux center plate (flat plate with a center to butt against the end of part), turned without issue.... Not real familiar with the ST series, ran a ST20 for a bit and it held a few tenths after warmed up and dialed in, but on smallish (1.5-2" od) aluminum parts.

 

[Mhajicek]

if you look at the pricing hass isnt really that great, by the time you add normal options. Doosan runs about the same price and weighs more as the hass. not to mention its a more rigid machine and still has box ways

On what page can I configure a Doosan and see the prices?

 

[Vancbiker]

On what page can I configure a Doosan and see the prices?

You’re missing out! You call the Doosan rep and make him take you to a good lunch or a round of golf while you discuss options and pricing.

 

[Mhajicek]

Yeah, I don't have time for that. Just send me a full price list including all options and option compatibility with each machine, let me do the math while I'm running parts. But oh no, they'll want to do each build for you. But then if you ask for 24 different builds they're going to stop answering your emails.

 

[Booze Daily]

I’ve been known to sit at my desk eating lunch and building different configurations of machines on Haas website to see price.

Something like that just might prompt me to consider a purchase.

I don’t know why other MTB don’t have pricing. Seems like an easy thing.

If I called a sales rep every time I wanted a price on some combo they’d stop taking my calls.

 

[Vancbiker]

Yeah, I don't have time for that. .......

That just means you're working too hard.

(BTW, I hope you get that I'm just funning ya (note the winky eye thingy at the end of my earlier post).

 

[Delw]

heres a quote I got back in 2019. thru coolant was standard on the doosan. >>>> edit I had said 2009 the quote was in 2019








I agree though if these machine builders would put pricing on the webpages they would do much better. most machiest know what they are getting a saleman wont help make the decision as they have no clue what you want or need. we dont allow any sales guys in our shop, even for quotes. last sales guy I had in my shop I told him if he wanted to talk about his machine then start pulling chips out of that machine he's standing in front of. And he did, we bought 3 lathes from him granted that was in 97.

 

[Delw]

The DNM5700 (40x20)
was $100400.00 both 12k spindles both were set up exactly like my haas plus they had through coolant on the spindle

 

[lobust]

we dont allow any sales guys in our shop, even for quotes. last sales guy I had in my shop I told him if he wanted to talk about his machine then start pulling chips out of that machine he's standing in front of. And he did, we bought 3 lathes from him granted that was in 97.

Honest salesmen are a rare breed, but they do exist.

The last new machine we bought was the DMG Mori and in the final round it was pitched against Okuma and Doosan - Doosan included as the budget option, as it looked good on paper and a lot cheaper than the other two.

The DMG guy and Doosan guy are both ex field service and are well liked by just about anyone you ask. We bought machines from the Doosan guy previously when he represented a different brand, and he was really good. Neither will push a sale for the wrong machine, and they both do well with their approach.

The Okuma guy is the other kind. He'll tell you whatever you want to hear to make a sale. He used to work for Mazak and he was the same then. He was 50% of the reason I don't have any Mazaks (the other 50% being their reputation of not giving a fuck about you unless you have dozens of their machines), and 90% of the reason I have an NTX instead of a Multus.

It's annoying because Okuma used to have a really good sales guy in this area who really went the extra mile, and knew every option on every machine inside out. I have no idea what happened to him at Okuma, probably they didn't like that he refused to bullshit his way to a sale. Whatever, their loss.

I really don't understand why serious players in this industry hire sales-orientated salesmen. Potential buyers in this industry have a much lower than average tolerance for sales bullshit, and a much higher than average respect for technical knowledge and experience. It seems so obvious, and yet they keep doing it.

 

[Delw]

I screwed up my quotes for the above post on the doosans they were 2019 not 2009.
also I got a quote from my hfo hass the same time for a vf2ss same options as doosan quote above . it was 87k. deliveried to my location.

 

[Mike1974]

It may be a silly detail, but the simple fact I can go to Haas website and research machines, options, accessories, and get up front pricing is a big deal to me anyways. We are probably (hopefully, not sure if it's done yet) adding a VF4ss soon. We have a big order coming up and were/are considering a multi spindle 5c indexer unit. The fact I can go to their (Haas) website, look it up, and get a price is invaluable to me/us. I HATE having to email someone, wait for a reply, read through their BS about options and how they can "help" us, and STILL not get a price without 2 or 3 follow up emails. Thanks, but no thanks.

Could you imagine doing that as a regular Joe? Go to Walmart (etc), find what you want and have to talk to a salesperson to get a price? Then find out it cost 2-3x what you want to spend??! LoL

 

[lobust]

It may be a silly detail, but the simple fact I can go to Haas website and research machines, options, accessories, and get up front pricing is a big deal to me anyways. We are probably (hopefully, not sure if it's done yet) adding a VF4ss soon. We have a big order coming up and were/are considering a multi spindle 5c indexer unit. The fact I can go to their (Haas) website, look it up, and get a price is invaluable to me/us. I HATE having to email someone, wait for a reply, read through their BS about options and how they can "help" us, and STILL not get a price without 2 or 3 follow up emails. Thanks, but no thanks.

Could you imagine doing that as a regular Joe? Go to Walmart (etc), find what you want and have to talk to a salesperson to get a price? Then find out it cost 2-3x what you want to spend??! LoL

That's certainly a valuable tool, and I do wish that more would follow that model, but IME it usually only takes one email to get some ballpark prices. Generally I'll send an email to the sales guy and say "I'm shopping for machine x with y options, please give me a price and lead time." and they'll send priced spec sheets for whatever machines they have in stock, to see if they have something sitting that they can offload quickly. If not, then the quote building process starts.

Unless it's Mazak, in which case they never reply anyway, or deign to respond a month after you've bought somebody elses machine (true story).

 

[Kustomizer]

I am down to 7 Haas machines but have owned a dozen, the first being a 92 in a plastic bubble. I have found them to be very reliable and capable for the work we do, I really like that I can call the factory and talk to someone that not only speaks english but can help me fix my machines. Years ago I called down there late on a friday expecting an answering machine and Gene answewed, I was having problems with the finishes on my new VMC, Gene told me to send it back and he would refund every penny. I told him I only wanted it to be as good as the old Haas machine sitting next to it, he said he would contact me Monday with a solution, Monday morning I had a guy from the factory waiting for me in the driveway. He tore the machine apart, tested everything under the sun over the next few days, had the HFO running back and forth to the bay area for parts (140 miles one way ) they red labled in stuff from the factory and finaly they found the problem, a handfull of rubber washers between the motor casting and the spindle casting were too soft allowing the two castings to clatter against one another. Gene called me about six months later asking if I was happy with my machine and to tell me they added a new wing to the factory for vibration control and that my problem should never happen again. Good people and good machines.

 

[Oldwrench]

...and were/are considering a multi spindle 5c indexer unit. The fact I can go to their (Haas) website, look it up, and get a price is invaluable to me/us. I HATE having to email someone, wait for a reply, read through their BS about options and how they can "help" us, and STILL not get a price without 2 or 3 follow up emails. Thanks, but no thanks

I can relate to this. Just TRY to get all the way to the end of the quoting process for a multi-spindle 5C indexer on anything but a Haas. Endless phone tag and buck-passing ("I'll have to check with Engineering on that"). Monumental waste of time.

I've discovered some manufacturers advertise stuff on their websites they don't even have.
"The link is broken, I click on the picture and it comes up, Page Not Found."
"Hmmm. Maybe I should check on that."
(Yeah, like maybe you should...)

 

[Mud]

I've discovered some manufacturers advertise stuff on their websites they don't even have.

Example - Korloy has a LOT of ripper style mills in their catalog that are eaxctly what I need, like 1.5" or 2" dia w 1.25" or 1.5" shanks, have been for years, never been available.

 

[g-coder05]

In 2013/14 I ordered (6) ST20Y’s. About a week after they were delivered Haas announced the new standard 6k live tools vs the 4K I just received for the same price. No problem, called the distributor up and within a week they swapped all over to 6k motors no questions asked. I don’t think any of the Japanese makers would have agreed to that.

 

[Garwood]

I have zero personal experience with new. I know local people who have shops they've built with new Haas after new Haas and seem to do fine with it.

I know one person that started his shop financing a new Brother, but his business model depended on it.

I know a lot of folks, myself included, that decided buying used Japanese machines with cash made more sense for them than financing a new Haas.

All those options are great. They can all work equally well with the right plan.

What I don't get is why anyone in their right mind would buy a used Haas for cash money instead of a drastically more capable Japanese machine for a similar amount. The prices used Haas machines sell for VS what they can earn and what they cost to repair and maintain makes no sense to me. I think it stems from a belief that Japanese machines are expensive when they break and I believe that can be true if you just call the dealer and tell them to red label the parts.

I have come to appreciate this thinking. It probably reduces competition for the machines I like and when I do snatch up a Haas for peanuts I know I can make an easy profit on it.

Every time I have sold a Haas it's a first machine and the buyer is very green. Buying a Haas seems safer to them.

 

[Delw]

What I don't get is why anyone in their right mind would buy a used Haas for cash money.

This is the #1 reason I agree with cause if its a 1st or 2nd generation they dont support it, hard to get parts for etc etc. can you imagine buying a 30-50k machine then have to drop a min of 20k in it becuase you and up having one bad control board.
Ive been tempted but that 20k control deal is a deal breaker. I dotnt hink most people even knew about that till Wheelie king pointed it out on PM a few years back.