Identify this Fellows?

[Garwood]

Fascinating guy in his 80's came into my shop today. He started one of the Portland gear shops 40 years ago. He has a small Fellows, a truckload of cutters and guides for it and a truckload of hobs he wants to move on to someone who can use it for pretty cheap. He also offered to set it up and help me run gears on my other hobber.

He doesn't know what model it is. He says it's not a 6 or 6a. It has a 2" stroke and about 7" max od.

These are pictures of the Fellows he has. I took pictures of the film pictures he brought.



Anyone have a guess at the model?

 

[Mud]

It looks like the pictures in those 7 & 7A manuals I posted. I don't know enough to differentiate them.

 

[Garwood]

You nailed it John! 7A is an exact match.

 

[Vancbiker]

25 or so years ago Warn Industries had a couple dozen of those or very similar making winch and hub parts. Their maintenance department always had one or two being rebuilt. Wonder if they still are using them now. A dozen or so 6 spindle Wickmans knocking out blanks. A 2 floor broach area with 1 floor below ground, 1 at ground level with a 20 or so foot ceiling. They would stack up 20-30 blanks and pull an 8-10 foot long broach through the stack. Very impressive production.

 

[Garwood]

I think this was a Warn machine. The owner ran the gear dept at Warn for 23 years he said. Then he went on his own.

 

[Booze Daily]

Looks like a jolly good one.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Yep. 7 series. Looks like std machine. Looks like a 2" riser, from here. Nice machines when they are in shape. Vast majority have been neglected and abused. Don has/makes parts for them and is a WEALTH of knowledge regarding them.

 

[Garwood]

Yep. 7 series. Looks like std machine. Looks like a 2" riser, from here. Nice machines when they are in shape. Vast majority have been neglected and abused. Don has/makes parts for them and is a WEALTH of knowledge regarding them.

Thanks for your input. What does "std machine" mean?

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Thanks for your input. What does "std machine" mean?

"Standard".

 

[Garwood]

"Standard".

Well, yeah lol. What does a "standard" machine lack?

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Well, yeah lol. What does a "standard" machine lack?

It's not that it *lacks* anything, rather that there doesn't appear to be any indication of any of the numerous variants or specialized attachments that Fellows (or the aftermarket) offered throughout the years. I.E., taller riser blocks, adjustable riser blocks, various spindle options, rack cutting attachments, face gear attachments, bevel gear attachments, sector gear attachments, tailstocks, variable helical attachments, etc...

As an example, our 7125A was originally manufactured specifically for making Sector Gears and also had a Rack Cutting Attachment at some point in its life. It was built with (and still has) a 6" riser and our Spindle has more travel than many of the 7 series.

 

[Freedommachine]

I think this was a Warn machine. The owner ran the gear dept at Warn for 23 years he said. Then he went on his own.

So this man - who has spent the majority of his working life making gears - walks in, offers to sell you a gear cutting machine and assistance setting it up and running it?

Talk about opportunity knocking, man that's awesome!

I have one request; Dana 60 planetary hubs; for when 4LO just isn't low enough.

 

[Garwood]

So this man - who has spent the majority of his working life making gears - walks in, offers to sell you a gear cutting machine and assistance setting it up and running it?

Talk about opportunity knocking, man that's awesome!

I have one request; Dana 60 planetary hubs; for when 4LO just isn't low enough.

I bought two gear hobbers and one was pretty shitty so I put it up for sale cheap. This guy answered my gear hobber ad. Acted like he wanted to buy it and drove an hour. He had zero interest in the hobber. He just wanted to sell me his fellows. It was interesting.

It hasn't gone anywhere. I haven't made it out to look at his Fellows yet. I've been too busy and the stroke on his machine is shorter than I want.

But Zahnrad's post does make me wonder- As simple as these machines are if a guy couldn't make a longer eccentric to squeak more stroke out of it.

I want to make some automotive shafts with external and internal splines. Hob the external splines and shape the ID splines.

I have some minor products I currently make for offroad recovery winch stuff, but I have some really big ideas and some of those do involve gears and would require a Fellows.

I think where I'm at right now is I have a shitload of work to get through in the next few months. Products to prove out and launch, Engine dyno crap to figure out and the primary gear that I bought the gear hobbers to make has become available again hardened and ground for under $20/each which makes it very hard to justify making my own right now.

I don't know. I should probably sell the hobber and buy this guy's fellows, but I'm kinda burned out on buying machines.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

... does make me wonder- As simple as these machines are if a guy couldn't make a longer eccentric to squeak more stroke out of it.

I'm nowhere even near expert level, here. However, there's a bit more to it than just an eccentric allowing more offset. There is a finite amount of Rack on the spindle, mating with a small portion of Sector gear that drives it, and there is only so much distance between the two bronze bearings that the Spindle travels between. (top and bottom) There is also some consideration that needs be given for the return springs in the top of the guides, too. And then, there's the constrictions when swapping from External to Internal Gears/Splines... The list goes on. Otherwise, everybody and their brother (including myself) would have simply made larger adjusting cams, long ago. Seems we're always running up 1/4" too short for the task desired. For all the extensive murderfications that I have made to ours, I'd be cheering you on with encouragement if it were that simple. It rarely is, though. When you dig into these old girls (at least every time that I have) one can't help but come away with a higher respect for what Fellows accomplished when they designed and made them.

 

[Mud]

When you dig into these old girls (at least every time that I have) one can't help but come away with a higher respect for what Fellows accomplished when they designed and made them.

Every time I thought I could "just change this a little to get that" it really was at the limit already. On a 6A if you lengthen the stroke you limit the vertical position adjustment, I imagine a 7 is the same. It's astounding what they did in the 30s with pencil and paper..

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Every time I thought I could "just change this a little to get that" it really was at the limit already. On a 6A if you lengthen the stroke you limit the vertical position adjustment, I imagine a 7 is the same. It's astounding what they did in the 30s with pencil and paper..

Yep. It's the same. And yes, I feel the same way. One of the things that always strikes me is how complex the internals can be with numerous worms, wheels, diffs and direction changes, (in addition to the obvious change wheels) but all of that complexity results in such an eloquently simple concept and motion. It was all conceived 100 (and more) years ago in concept, paper, and application and is still ( to this day ) difficult to beat for the economy and application. These machines ( and copies of them ) are running continuously, all over the world, still.

 

[Garwood]

Bumping this to the top.

The seller and I reconnected about this shaper and I'm going to go check it out tomorrow morning.

I know I have read little tidbits all over the internet of things to check out, but like a smart guy I didn't save all that wisdom anywhere.

I remember the condition of the guides is paramount. And something about checking lube wicking? Maybe that was for guides as well?

Do the guides gall? Get sloppy? Telltale "it's fucked" signs?

Do these machines have their stroke length stamped somewhere or is it a adjust it to max and measure it thing?

 

[Garwood]

"A few things to look at. 1) Check the cutter spindle for scoring. 2) check the guide for backlash- you can lift the top cover off and put a wrench on the spindle retaining nut and move it back and forth. While looking in the top, are the drip lube strings intact? and how much gunk is in the bottom- that will give you an idea of how the machine was treated. All the lube for the guide and the work spindle is gravity with oil dripping down those strings, so they are pretty critical. The guide is adjustable, but something to check. 3) check the backlash on the work spindle- that is also adjustable. Pop the left change gear cover off (6 socket head cap screws) just generally inspect the interior. A 7 reverses things with a selector located on the front back wall of the main casting behind the work spindle- there is no "reversing attachment". Run the machine and listen for funny sounds, bad bearings.
When cutting internals, there is a stroking arm extension that bolts onto the stroke arm with two shoulder bolts to allow the head to move farther to the right - suppose you could make one of those easy enough. You did not mention any feed cams- ask if the current owner has any extras- also look at what cam is on the machine as they are roughly related to the depth of cut, # of cuts etc, and finding extras can be a chore. Good luck. "

Found this by Dan from Oakland on PM.

 

[Mud]

2) check the guide for backlash- you can lift the top cover off and put a wrench on the spindle retaining nut and move it back and forth.

I'm extrapolating from my 6As here - the spur guide can get scored if the lube fails, the cast guide and housing pick up material from each other and make gouges. same with the cutter spindle. run them up and down as far as the machine adjustments will allow and look for damage. 2 of mine needed major repair.

While looking in the top, are the drip lube strings intact? and how much gunk is in the bottom- that will give you an idea of how the machine was treated. All the lube for the guide and the work spindle is gravity with oil dripping down those strings, so they are pretty critical.

Those strings get gunked up and stop wicking lube. I ~think~ it's the tackifiers in way lube that clog them up. They can look fine and be wet with oil but not conduct any lube where needed.

 

[Garwood]

Why is the max internal face width 1/2" shorter than the 2" external face width on a Fellows 7A?